Marcus and Karen Hilton, MBE* - Part 1
from England
Dancesportinfo: Marcus, Karen, you won practically every major
professional championship there is. I am not going to ask you about your dance
career because you are too well known, you're legends of the dance,
particularly in Ballroom dancing. Your career was simply too fantastic not to
know it! [Marcus laughing] How do you think dancing has changed from
the time you were competing?
Marcus: ....[pause] I think the dancers have become
younger. When we were dancing, when we first broke into the final, when we
eventually started to win, we were dancing against the people that were a
little bit older than us. We had youth on our side. Now the dancers seem to be
younger. Although, thinking about this, take Timothy Howson, who just won the
International, must be in his thirties. Whilst we won our first Worlds when we
were 29!
"the timing aspect, the beauty of the dancing sometimes
is lost to, say, go for the sportive look, for the quickest look, for the
strongest look"
Karen: Timothy [
Howson - Ed.] is
ten years younger than us...
Marcus: Everything seems to be, watching it, quicker, faster...
Karen: I think the dancing developed in a different way really...
Choreography became faster. I think it's a trend at the moment that
choreography is faster. It is really down to the coaches to develop dancing in
a different way. People are always trying to do something different. At the
moment, syncopation has gone a little "hay wire", particularly in the slower
dances like the Waltz. But we have to be very careful not to lose the character
of these dances.
But certainly
the technique and the knowledge of the dances is much
greater at an earlier age than it ever has been. Comparing to our own career...
Comparing to ourselves then...
Marcus: I think you cannot say for yourself, because you didn't see
yourself from the outside, you only felt what you were doing... I think dancing
now is improving all the time. Maybe there is no single couple that stands
out... maybe years ago, when we were champions for such a long time we stood
out then... but now, the overall level seem to be much better. I think, as
Karen was saying, the technical aspect, the timing aspect, the beauty of the
dancing sometimes is lost to say go for the sportive look, for the quickest
look, for the strongest look. Of course you have to be competitive, you have to
be positive, but in the end of a day it's an art and you have to look beautiful
doing it. I think sometimes that side of it is just a little bit forgotten...
for the sheer speed effect.
in their house in London Karen: I think the standard is
phenomenal, if we are just talking from the Professional point of view. If you
take Professional semi-finalists, each of them would make a great final.
Sometimes we don't see them in a finals situation, but I am sure that would be
great.
Dancesportinfo: I was talking to one of the Polish teachers,
at the International, and he said that from his point of view the time of the
masters past... He said that several years ago, he had tears in his eyes when
he's seen you dancing or in Latin, Donnie's dancing. But now it's just pleasing
to the eye but no strong emotions....
Marcus: It's a transitional period now, I think. When you look at the
finals now, there is a lot of top Amateurs who can progress to that status
later in their lives. I think you have to give it a bit of time maybe. There is
a lot of individual type performances now, which in our time I don't think
there was. I think there were the odd two or three couples who stood out, who
had their own performance styles. Now, there is more people who are dancing
their own way. I can certainly think of two or three such couples in the
Professional final who you can smile and say it's their own style! Whilst in
our time, there was maybe one couple, apart from ourselves, who stood out as
having their own style. Ballroom dancing especially now has branched out to the
effect where people have their own styles.
Karen: I think that situation between ourselves and John and Ann
[Ed:John Wood and Ann Lewis] when we danced, in the early part of our career,
pushed us both to greater levels. Because we were always looking to be better
than the other couple so it was a very positive feel for that. And we kept
stretching ourselves and we had a time to develop it. So we were very lucky, I
think. The same for Donnie.
Marcus: Donnie was in a great position, he was a young man when he found
himself on the top of the Latin Professionals, with Gaynor. We worked our way
up differently, from Latin to Ballroom.
Karen: We couldn't make up our minds [laughing].
Marcus : But I think we created our own style.
Dancesportinfo: Not many people think about you as Latin
dancers, really...
Marcus : No, because for the last 12 years of our career we were
mainly Ballroom, only Ballroom. But we were brought up to do both. We used to
teach Latin, mainly Latin. Now the tide has changed. But Latin influence in our
dancing helped to create a certain look and flexibility. Maybe that side of it,
in today�s dancing is not as strong. People tend to specialise in one or the
other branch, Ballroom or Latin. That can shape the performance a little bit, I
think.
"But Latin influence in our dancing helped to create a
certain look. And the flexibility [...] That can style the performance"
Dancesportinfo: Probably one of the questions you're ask the
most is how can you achieve such level. Probably the answer is work hard, but
it's a boring answer and there obviously are thousands of couples who work hard
and are talented. But they aren't achieving your level.
Karen: I think it all depends on circumstances. They say that some
partnerships are made in heaven. And it's true really. We look at it from our
own point of view, we live and breathe dancing not just five hours a day, or
seven as top competitors. It was always 24 hours a day, not every couple can do
that. Not every couple is romantically involved. Everything we did was towards
that goal... It went beyond... Couples come in today and say, "oh, we did two
hours practice last night," and I smile sometimes, because when we were
preparing for a big competition, two months before Blackpool, and we used to do
a minimum of six hours on the floor, every single day.
We've already danced together for twenty years but you can see, that's the sort
of commitment we were prepared to put in. People say work hard, but how hard do
people work? And despite of that still finding the joy of dance which will make
the whole thing look magical. That's the balance. You have to find a balance
with everything you do!
Marcus : And there is a strong element of luck involved, like with
everything! You have to have talent to start with, but it has to be nurtured,
trained in correct direction. And we were obviously in the right place, at the
right time, when we met each other, we had the correct grounding from our first
teachers. We had some bad results, we had negative feeling. But you get over
that. We were very, very competitive. So even through the bad times, the
competitive spirit brought us back to make sure we did better next time!
Karen : We were always hungry for it, it meant a lot for us. We
always took the responsibility of it on board. And responsibility to everybody
else. Our greatest disappointment is that Hazel and Chris finished so early.
It's a terrible disappointment. It's not only for them. They had so much more
to offer, to do, and they were an absolute delight in everything they did. But
it didn't mean enough for them to continue.... For an aspiring dancer,
everything they did and had was a dream, but it wasn't enough for them.
Karen with Henry, at home
Dancesportinfo: Maybe what was lacking was that romantic
involvement?
Karen: Maybe. And balance as well, to keep your life on track
Marcus: You see Donnie and Gaynor didn't and they managed it. It was the
hunger. We often say, and it's frightening really, that we never thought we
wouldn't be successful. I suppose that sounds big headed, but I don't mean it
that way - we never considered losing, we never considered not being champions,
and we never considered not being an icon.
Karen: We never doubted that we were capable of doing this.
Marcus: [laughing] Frightening, isn't it?
Karen: No fear at all [laughing]
Marcus : We were always taught that by our parents. It's not just
what you do on the floor, but often what you do off the floor also. It's how
you're seen, how you behave, how you dress, how you look. It's a total package!
That's why it's so artistic to be a champion. Yes, you have to have the fitness
levels, you have to have the mental strength, but it's the total package
wrapped around that, isn�t it, that makes a difference. These couples today, I
give you an example in Lithuania, at the championships [two days earlier, on
Saturday 30th Oct 2004, Marcus was judging World Amateur Standard Championships
in Vilnius, Lithuania] everyone was on the floor in tracksuits, in jeans, and
things like that. We would never dream of going to a competition like that. I
know that times change, but the elegance of it hasn't changed. The look doesn�t
change. The men have to wear tail suits; they also wear jackets and waistcoats.
It has to be seen to be done in a correct way I believe. In Ballroom anyway.
Dancesportinfo : People are complaining that wearing a tail
suit in the morning is not a proper way of dressing
"It's how you're seen, how you behave, how you dress, how
you look. It's a total package! That's why it's so artistic to be a champion"
Marcus : I never had a problem in doing this, because I was brought
up to know nothing else. We used to do competitions in catsuits in the morning.
What's the difference, nine o'clock in the morning getting dressed like
this...? It's what you do, what's required of you. Sometimes, the competitors
say you should be involved totally with everything, but why change a winning
formula. You can try to make it better or open to ideas...
Karen: We've done the afternoon heats in lounge suits and dresses
and it was just as expensive. We did it at the International, and it was not
cheaper at all. People say it is less expensive but people have to have purpose
made jackets and dresses so they didn't move on you. And it was just more
luggage! It wasn't easier or anything different. Everyone was still dressed
very formally, even though it was more casual.
Dancesportinfo : Dancing is not a cheap activity...
Marcus: It's not. Oh, no. You need support, you need backing, and you
need to work hard.
Karen: But I think responsibility is a missing word in many today's
young dancers. And it makes them all very short term. And that's a little
disappointing, isn't it? Because we were taught from a very early age, coming
from small northern towns. And we were quite successful at a young age, being
seventeen, sixteen and coming to the mayor's parlour for an audience with a
mayor. You just learn how to talk to people, how to behave. You wouldn't turn
out dressed scruffily, unshaven, to have an audience with a mayor of Rochdale,
or to visit the Houses of Parliament. And that gives you a responsibility
outside of your own sphere and this is the sort of thing you learn to grow up
with. And we always have done. It is important.
Marcus : How you conduct yourself, you can change your attitude,
can't you? The way you're seen is important.
Karen: I remember talking to Bobbie Irvine once, she was our friend as
well as teacher, and she said, at this time, at a particular moment, we were
the only champions she hadn't had to teach how to eat! [Laughing] And it was
meant as a great compliment, because she took it upon herself to make sure that
all her boys and girls who were, you know, several times eating at the table of
the princes of Japan and Denmark and had audiences with people, who knew how to
behave. And she said to us, that "you two are the only two I haven't actually
had to teach how to eat with a knife and fork and what to do with them." And
it's also reflection of the modern day, using a knife and fork in a casual way
but you must think of what you are doing, you are representing your country! So
it's the whole package.
"Bobbie Irvin took it upon herself to
make sure that all her boys and girls who were, [...] eating at the table of
the princes of Japan, Denmark [...] knew how to behave!"
little Henry with Mum and Dad
Dancesportinfo : It is a shame that dancing is sort of not
in fashion. Hopefully, Strictly Come Dancing [BBC Television programme,
currently showing the 2nd series - Ed.] brings it back a bit.
What's your opinion about the reasons for this situation?
Marcus: I suppose that one of the aspects could be money. Parents
becoming younger and thinking it's not fashionable for their children to go to
dance schools. Whereas, my parents met dancing after the war. And they knew of
dancing so they introduced me and my sister to it. Nowadays there is so many
things available, there is computers... you know, everything seems to be
available. Maybe that why we need publicity, which is short in England , no TV
coverage of the UK Championships, it�s not seen as a thing to do. Having said
that, the leagues of dancing, the Supadance league, and the medal scene is
thriving. But it is not entering into the competitive side at the moment
Dancesportinfo : What can one do to change it?
Marcus: I think that the change is starting to happen because a recent
competition of juniors and juveniles was absolutely packed. Maybe because of
some of the medal kids are coming in as well
Dancesportinfo : Well, on the International there were maybe
20 kids...
Marcus: That's not packed!
Dancesportinfo: ...In the Russian Open there were 300
Marcus: I know. But it's a new country in relation to the history of
dance England has. And I can appreciate that, but maybe out of those 300 people
only a handful of champions will come out. Out of maybe 20 British juveniles a
handful of champions may come out... I can understand that the levels are down,
why is the question. All I can say is a transitional period really. When we
used to dance in juvenile, there never was more then 30, maximum of 40 kids at
the major events in England . Was it?
Karen: Probably not even that many...
Marcus: So, maybe the popularity of dancing in Russia is higher...
maybe it's cheaper in those countries to dance, I don't know. I cannot answer
your initial question fully... But I think, the lull today is due to the lack
of publicity.
Karen: And too much of other choices for the youngsters today. Also,
the school curriculum today is much more demanding. Even the youngest children
who come home from school have three hours of homework to do, you know, in a
good school. In every single night. And they don't really have time in a
weekday to do much dancing at all, or any other activities when they are
involved in so many school activities like rugby, football etc. We danced every
night of the week, even at a young age. Every single night of the week.
Marcus, with his wife Karen
Dancesportinfo: There is a stereotype that this activity is
such that it is for people who can only move, who can only do physical work.
But all the champions I met, most of them, are intelligent people!
Karen: [laughing] that�s true. But you cannot teach every move
to some very intelligent people - they just cannot coordinate!! They cannot
count the music. Or you cannot teach sometimes a musician, he can be often out
of time! This was a case of a top musician. I won't tell what country he is
from but he wasn't able to count Samba at all.
Marcus: It is strange how often the intellectual quality affect your
dancing.
Karen: It's an instinct really
Marcus: You have to have that certain artistry and musicality. And I
think that sometimes it needs to be brought out, you cannot spot that all the
time. It needs to be brought out in various, different ways: having lessons is
the main way, isn�t it? And how people approach the lesson is very important,
whether they want to learn from that lesson, or they go just for political
reasons. Some people want to find shortcuts, but there are no shortcuts in this
business. If you don't put the work in, you won't get anything out. And knowing
that you put that work in your dancing helps, when the major competition comes
and you didn't, you know in your brain you didn't. There is a bit of a negative
angle then.
Karen: Because it is like preparing for battle, isn't it?
Marcus: Yes, have all your angles shielded and covered! But we move off
the original question, didn't we? The negative publicity or the lack of it, the
school curriculum and the perception of it, not seen as an attractive activity
to general public...
Dancesportinfo: Do you think that the BBC program Strictly
Come Dancing, the first edition created that positive publicity?
announcing a birth of their
son, Henry
"And how people approach the lesson is very important.
[...] Some people want to find shortcuts, but there are no shortcuts in
this business"
Karen: I must say that Strictly
Come Dancing has brought a lot of it back. We've never been involved with any
life outside of dancing really. A little bit with our neighbours in North of
England. Now, having all these celebrities, known to people, involved in
Strictly Come Dancing maybe it will show them how difficult it is. They
wouldn�t have known otherwise.
Marcus : Maybe they will appreciate how hard it is, maybe people
will see these top sportsmen who are fit and active and still cannot do it! And
look stupid doing it. And maybe these older people, who are not necessarily
fit, look quite good doing it. So it is not just a fitness level.
Karen: After the first edition of Strictly Come Dancing, perhaps because
of Chris Parker from Eastenders, who knows, there was definitely an increase of
interest, especially in all the social dance schools. I don't admire his
dancing, but definitely his courage!
Marcus : We both started in a social dance school and then filtered
through to the competitive side. In Poland , for instance, it's more clubs than
schools. You see, we've never had that in England . That maybe is also reason
for less of our kids going into competitive dancing, maybe social dance school
and the filtering through to the competitive dancing is a backbone of our
problem.
Dancesportinfo: Yes, I can see that the teacher is paid from
one hour to another and outside of that time is busy with someone else. So
there is no feedback, no overall advice, no feeling of a group or club.
Karen: Well, traditionally the main teacher always looks after the
couples. When we were younger our teacher, yours [referring to Marcus]
was Bob Dale at that time, mine was George Coad and Pat Thompson. They were the
people you would ask for advice. Often in the evenings I received calls about
dresses, hair, this and that, diet, personal problems. I see a thousand dresses
before a major competition and tell people this is good, this is not good, do
this, don't do that! So I'm sure, that most of the Professionals who are
involved do get involved in their couples problems. You have to and you do! I
know lots of teachers who didn't judge but came over to Brentwood at the
International to watch their couples who wouldn't get to the Albert Hall,
dancing Youth or Junior. So for people who have a regular teacher, they get
that advice and feedback from..
Marcus: In Vilnius, I said to Karen how many coaches were at that
competition, various countries sent their own representatives, Germany, Norway,
Denmark, and Austria . I couldn't believe the amount of foreign managers! I
think it's a European thing; there was no one from England.
Karen: And never has been.
Marcus: Maybe it has to change, for couples to get that backing feeling
from. Not a club, but a country. Maybe that needs to be improved in England.
Karen : But I have that feeling, that if you cannot do it on your
own you will not have someone else dancing there on the floor for you!
Part 2
Part 3
*MBE - The Member of the Most excellent Order of the British Empire, the
honorary title given by the Queen